Frenzy sequence

[Darkfury]

well somehow I have always feel that frenzy sequence look poor.
when is actually accurate with WtM, many times distracted me from game in a bad way.
Watching how my Vamp walks  into the nearest target and do some bashing is somehow silly.

So the idea is to make it more scary or gore in a form of Video sequence, but with some blank points.
Camera could go around player and close up to the face. Then rage animation of face would be in play, with gore sound of rage.
Like doing some really bad and wild things. obviously there will be blood on the screen and blured background.
Then black screen, face of scared victim. Then blood on the pavement. then black screen. Screaming victim sound.
all those elements can be played in different order each time.
Anyway.

After that sequence i would suggest that we can face consequences of ouer rage. So the bodies will be visible and blood around them.
It should be more like a waking up from traumatic state, from inner horror .


It can be more fun to watch and concerning that rage or frenzy occurs when the beast takes over and not many cainites
remember what exactly has happened.
This kind of Frenzy imo will be more immersive, but i don't know how that can work in multiplayer.
Maybe we should disable frenzy for multiplayer ?
What do you think people ?
 

[Greek Dubbings Maker]

That's very interesting, but you' ve forgot the point where the beast makes you go to feed.
Anyway,

and concerning that rage or frenzy occurs when the beast takes over and not many cainites
remember what exactly has happened

That's exactly what was missing from the original game.  And your idea is brilliant :

Camera could go around player and close up to the face. Then rage animation of face would be in play, with gore sound of rage.
Like doing some really bad and wild things. obviously there will be blood on the screen and blured background.
Then black screen, face of scared victim. Then blood on the pavement. then black screen. Screaming victim sound.

Maybe we should disable frenzy for multiplayer ?

OVER MY DEAD BODY. Please dear developer dont disable frenzy.
In multiplayer, your idea might not suit very much.

I think that in multiplayer, FRENZY could be used as a weapon, rather that a "punishment" for keeping your humanity and blood low.
What I mean is, that Frenzy could be used as a weapon, when perhaps, you are weaker or less armed than your enemies. In this case, you would spend all of your blood, intentionally, in order to trigger FRENZY. Frenzy will give you tremendous power, enough to wipe out your enemies.

See ? In multiplayer FRENZY can be used to your advantage

[Darkfury]

That's very interesting, but you' ve forgot the point where the beast makes you go to feed.

no i have not. I just make a conception, what would be in this video sequence it's up to dev team.
I would recommend to do not make feed part during frenzy.
Unless it is somehow a part of a video played during this sequence.
Idea is a video sequence not in game animation. As i see it this would be more gore and scary and well mature ?

Reason for this is simple , to skip part where character targets the people,( enemy)
and run in to them which looks silly. This part looks allways the same. so video part with different sequences
IMO is more interesting.

I think that in multiplayer, FRENZY could be used as a weapon, rather that a "punishment" for keeping your humanity and blood low.
What I mean is, that Frenzy could be used as a weapon, when perhaps, you are weaker or less armed than your enemies. In this case, you would spend all of your blood, intentionally, in order to trigger FRENZY. Frenzy will give you tremendous power, enough to wipe out your enemies.

Well yeah,
I agree but with really really good animations. With the part where character in rage makes a hell  of a mess, blood everywhere,
animation where he literally takes off someones arms and head, eats somebody throat. Where he drinks blood in some sick passion.
Where vampire makes everyone around scared.
If freenzy will look like a sick orgy of blood then yes,
That would be brilliant - but
 
I doubt this is possible. If it is that would be my wish too.





   

[Greek Dubbings Maker]

I think that in multiplayer, FRENZY could be used as a weapon, rather that a "punishment" for keeping your humanity and blood low.
What I mean is, that Frenzy could be used as a weapon, when perhaps, you are weaker or less armed than your enemies. In this case, you would spend all of your blood, intentionally, in order to trigger FRENZY. Frenzy will give you tremendous power, enough to wipe out your enemies.

Well yeah,
I agree but with really really good animations. With the part where character in rage makes a hell  of a mess, blood everywhere,
animation where he literally takes off someones arms and head, eats somebody throat. Where he drinks blood in some sick passion.
Where vampire makes everyone around scared.
If freenzy will look like a sick orgy of blood then yes,
That would be brilliant - but
 
I doubt this is possible. If it is that would be my wish too. 

Well, it is impossible, but I still don't think frenzy should be removed from multiplayer, just because the animations are not Hollywood.
I totally agree, that in Single-player, Frenzy needs to be reworked, but I don't think that in multiplayer, frenzy should be given so much attention. The original game's frenzy (where you get claws, attack everybody and then find the first one nearest you and drink all of  his bood) even with those bad animations, would fit properly in multiplyer, I fthink

[Greshym]

The thing is that when you're not capable of keeping the Beast in check, you frenzy. Essentially,  the Beast takes over.

If you're not feeding enough, the Beast will feed for you. (feeding frenzy)
If you are humiliated or hurt too much, the Beast will seek revenge (rage frenzy)
If you witness a big fire or some other display of sheer power, the Beast might feel threatened and try to flee (rötschreck)

It is your morality (humanity in most cases) that helps you to control the Beast.

AFAIK, in VtM:B only the first example was implemented. Although i seem to remember that of you took too much aggrav, you'd frenzy too.
It 'd be great if the three types were to be implemented. (Add a rotschreck test to the use of a flamethrower, for example).

[Darkfury]

The thing is that when you're not capable of keeping the Beast in check, you frenzy. Essentially,  the Beast takes over.

If you're not feeding enough, the Beast will feed for you. (feeding frenzy)
If you are humiliated or hurt too much, the Beast will seek revenge (rage frenzy)
If you witness a big fire or some other display of sheer power, the Beast might feel threatened and try to flee (rötschreck)

It is your morality (humanity in most cases) that helps you to control the Beast.

Yeah this different frenzy would make nice background for different video sequences. I like that.
but as i know reality (well i'm pessimist) it will be nice to have any improvement over this aspect of VTMB.
Altogether i think that video sequence with all aspects of frenzy,rage,rotshreck,  plus some difference each time when is it played,
and making a some kind of shocking consequences view after will give us full FRENZY.

About multiplayer i'm not big fan of multi so i will pass with my suggestions for this part.
 

[ivan4041]

I agree that frenzy can be made more cinematic with the use of "editing" tricks, however I feel there a few things that must be preserved:

You should be able to clearly see what is happening while in combat. Frenzy is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, it is dangerous for everybody involved, you can be killed much easier during frenzy, because the Beast can not strategize, therefore if the player is killed during frenzy, the whole sequence should be obvious. Imagine if you frenzy, the camera starts spinning, you hear screams and all of the sudden the screen says " You have met Final Death". That would not give the player justice.

The one that can totally be done this way (video sequence and all) is the Masquerade area frenzy- cops can't realistically kill you, and it's much more dramatic when you frenzy in front of civilians.

We cannot expect a full implementation of Rötschreck frenzy in the current singleplayer, because I don't think the game is designed with that in mind. Mostly you don't get to see fire on one hand, on the other it would make the Malkavian mansion mission almost unplayable. It would be weird if flamethrowers made you frenzy but burning buildings didn't. Besides aggravated damage makes you frenzy just like any other. However it is very possible and interesting to have missions and levels designed with that in mind and for that the Courage virtue should be implemented.

My suggestions:

I understand a Willpower system is going to be implemented. This is a great way to spend temporary willpower points. It would be great if the player could use the "feed" and "attack" key to drive the beast. This system is used in WoD. That way players can minimize the damage and make smart decisions, especially if Willpower is made a precious resource (which it should be).

It would be realistic if the player could get some Blood in Elysium areas, because nobody will let him frenzy there. Ofcourse he should be charged quite a bit for that and if he can't pay, he wouldn't be let in on the verge of Frenzy (nobody is that generous or stupid).

It would be nice (and kinda goofy, but let me explain) if the player received messages like "The beast hungers", "The beast is frightened" before the Frenzy occurs. Right now there is no dramatic build-up and people who enjoy this mechanic the most are pen-and-paper players who know it's implications. Frenzy should have repurcussions (more than using Disciplines to break the masquerade) so a proper warning and build-up should be present.

Multiplayer frenzy can be tricky, because I think the first thing the Beast would want to do is drink the other player up. That should totally be enabled and be part of the Strength+Brawl roll every tick. I think running away should be made an option during frenzy in these cases (at the expense of Willpower ofcourse), and when you do, you should go to back alley and automatically drink someone. This will make the beast predictable and it will be all down to the player to choose where he will do it, before anyone catches up.

Lastly if we are to explore different types of frenzy. The virtues of Self-control and Courage should be present for the purpose of level design and social-type frenzy. Vampires in WoD are volatile creatures and in the new content it would be great if that is present and it would give characters more depth (Having daredevil types and cool and calculating types). It would be cool if different multiplayer "chronicles" or maps or whatever they will be called revolved around one of these themes, as the WoD explained some of the various themes inherent to the WoD and how they shouldn't very well get mixed and served at the same time.

PS Conscience anyone? Why would we need conscience if the player is automatically losing humanity? Lets think of something.

[Darkfury]

I agree that frenzy can be made more cinematic with the use of "editing" tricks, however I feel there a few things that must be preserved:

You should be able to clearly see what is happening while in combat. Frenzy is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, it is dangerous for everybody involved, you can be killed much easier during frenzy, because the Beast can not strategize, therefore if the player is killed during frenzy, the whole sequence should be obvious. Imagine if you frenzy, the camera starts spinning, you hear screams and all of the sudden the screen says " You have met Final Death". That would not give the player justice.

The one that can totally be done this way (video sequence and all) is the Masquerade area frenzy- cops can't realistically kill you, and it's much more dramatic when you frenzy in front of civilians.

Yeah, actually i think that we all know how PnP rules work, and what GM can make ,juge , describe , but all this in computer game have to be
approach differently.
I would like all what You have said but I doubt that's possible.

therefore my idea is to make this frenzy like a Video alike or maybe a mini game with Video background.
Beacouse  this is the easy way to make a horror part , and rise a gore to the boiling point (FRENZY), .
You do realize that they (dev team) have to choose what to do and what not, simply we can not have all.
(maybe i'm wrong ? )   

Besides is in original game , and therefore my idea was how to improve original expeariance .
I  think that FRENZY sequence has to be remake somehow , it is  the worst part actually IMO.

If that FRENZY part can have more complicated sub parts well that;s great.
For me it would be enough to have it just like gore elements attached , like really good horror.
I   prefer this as a another  Conciense , Willpower, Etc values addition which will not be really dealt in game play.

I do like to see same structure like original VTM Bloodlines,  but improved.
Some parts executed better and wiser. With some new levels and history.

...
 

[ivan4041]

I find it hard to see where you disagree with me in your last post to be honest.

I am not suggesting a drastic change, as I said earlier - leave frenzy like it is now (with improved visuals if possible), then if the player changes targets of tries to move, have a [ You have expended a Willpower point] message pop up. Have Elysium NPCs sell blood. Play around the tension of Frenzy (like you also suggest).

Everything else is my rationalization of why this should be done and extra mechanics for Multiplayer which is a lot of work anyway.

I don't think a video sequence for frenzy would not work because:

- If the player is in an original location (eg Sabbat Warehouse), he could
 * enter a gore-filled scripted movie that kills all the enemies and the player regains control once that's done. This way this is an easy win mechanic for the player, will be abused and would not benefit gameplay.
 * enter a gore-filled scripted movie that might randomly let the player be killed - sounds nice and dangerous, but what would determine whether he dies if it's  "a video sequence not in game animation" and no healthbars are shown?

- If the player is not in a hostile, who does the player kill, where does he go afterwards? What happens when he enters frenzy with no one around like the original game. Contingencies like that will need to be scripted.

- Consider that it would probably not be that easy to animate a video sequence, and it will probably going to be just that single one every time the player enters frenzy. It might be cool the first couple of times, but seeing it over and over again, in addition to not being able to do stop your character could be annoying.

If you are willing to leave it as an in-game cinematic where you attack people like in the original, what would you improve, other than the visuals?

[Darkfury]

I don't think a video sequence for frenzy would not work because:

- If the player is in an original location (eg Sabbat Warehouse), he could
 * enter a gore-filled scripted movie that kills all the enemies and the player regains control once that's done. This way this is an easy win mechanic for the player, will be abused and would not benefit gameplay.
 * enter a gore-filled scripted movie that might randomly let the player be killed - sounds nice and dangerous, but what would determine whether he dies if it's  "a video sequence not in game animation" and no healthbars are shown?

- If the player is not in a hostile, who does the player kill, where does he go afterwards? What happens when he enters frenzy with no one around like the original game. Contingencies like that will need to be scripted.

Well mate, I do disagree in many points actually  :
 
what i do see in many new games it's ambition's which leads towards rather bad unpolished and bugged game  results, than a good game.
That's why i do prefer to have not so full of options game but something which adds to the mood itself.

As for Video sequence for freenzy in combat and all that ,  considering how
original VTMB freenzy looks (not works, which is close to PnP game) i came up with this idea .

It's true what You have stated that in combat zones it might be not a great solution.
But in a masquerade areas it can have more deep meaning and suits more accurate.

I would like it when character looses with the beast on the street and slaughter few people.
Maybe we can implement as well some Police investigation meter towards character (crime, proofs, led , suspect, etc)
Well that's another minigame in game i know .

As for combat zones yeah i do not agree with your doubt's it can be done (this video sequence ) like a minigame.
so video will not be the same each time ( BTW original sequence looks exactly the same each time)
it can have different influences, like number of the enemies, maybe some stats (like brawl level or humanity, not mention Willpower )

As for dying in this state i really can not see the difference , in the original game when freenzy you have no control as well .
I have die as well when freenzy made my character run in a gunfire and when it ended i have had not much time to avoid bullets.

It's not easy to win i didn't mention that it has to be super power, makeing this as a video sequence doesn't mean that it has to be automatic success towards your opponent's.
I did stated that it will be nice to make freenzy sequence
more horror alike, more scary and moody , as original freenzy looks for me just silly .

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