Clothes in the Game

[Konstantinos the Tremere]

I noticed in one of the updates the idea about getting various clothe stores around the hubs and to be honest i quite agree to see the game give more options when it comes to clothing. Also it would be interesting if the clothes or maybe equiped trinkets like watches and rings would add to a characters appearance stats depending on how fancy they were so for instance a character with a fancy but slightly uncomfortable wear would get a bonus on appearance while getting a slight penaldy in dexterity and other physical stats while if he was wearing more athletic oriented clothes get a bonus on physical stats while suffering a slight penaldy in appearance. That way the characters could dress for the occasion depending on what their mission calls for.

Also add some protective gear like body armors that would again lower appearance and maybe dexterity if they were too heavy but boost defences or bulletproof vests with a bit lower defences but depending on their quality and price, better one be able to be concealed under clothes, giving a smaller appearance penaldy.

So, in that case the character could dress for the occasion beforehand in his haven and for example dress fancy with maybe a concealed vest for the Giovanni party, wear a tracksuit that would allow him to use his sneaking skills far more effectively while storming the Kuei Jin stronghold or bust in in full body armor, giving hell in the Hallowbrook hotel or when storming the Ivory tower.

Also make the ability to change clothes only available while in the Haven and make certain missions require certain clothes so for instance in order to slip in the Giovanni party, having to wear a formal wear.

[Darkfury]

well i must say that , i do not agree.

Lately i'm bit worry about direction where this project goes.

Not every sandbox game needs a shape of a GTA.
What was good in bloodlines and i personally enjoyed, was focus on story , without so much spare things like choosing your jacket.

Better and more interesting would be to find clothes on missions, after all that's vampire game, horror game not a happy walking - buying
fashion hack'n slashion.

BTW shops are closed after 18:00 ,

I could agree that you can break in to some of a shops  to take some clothes.
(that is more acceptable for me how vamp gets new pants)
that can be fun and a little mission alike. With passing police or monitoring.

And i do not agree as well for a milions of bonuses and stats which give you that red scarf.

80% of a clothes should be without any influence on character stat.
8% of them should give  some disadvantage,
8% should give you some advantage
only 4% should be like master make rare items, or maybe even occult ? ( ghost pants ? )

[Konstantinos the Tremere]

VtM has always been an immersive role playing game, Bloodlines was so awesome because it finally allowed us to immerse ourselves visually in the world of Darkness. First off i don't see where you are getting the GTA vibe, nobody said anything about making the game more GTA like (although i think that it would work better if this was a WoD open world sandbox) still, i am quite happy with the way bloodlines is fleshed out. Still i had always hoped there was more customization in our appearance, something about infiltrating a Giovanni party dressed in a Hazmat uniform just doesn't really felt right (maybe some elements of hitman would make the game a little bit better on that field but that would be too much trouble and work to implement i wager). Espetially if the game is to support multiplayer i am sure ppl would appreciate if they didn't all look the same.

As for the shops i agree, they should be closed. i was just stating something i read they wanted to add in a recent update, if i was doing it i would have added the use of the computer to order clothing to their haven instead.

As for the "million of bonuses" as you say, clothes affect the way people see you so it is common sense to assume that in a WoD game they would affect a stat like appearance. lets not forget that vampires, despite their beastly nature, have been considered as creatures of vanity and pride compared to other creatures of the night.

Most clothes should have a small appearance and psysical effect compared to the type and quality, lets leave the occult bonuses mostly to the artefacts of the game

[ivan4041]

I am all for clothes being there where the story requires, but I am against them giving you social stats like Appearance. The reason is that stats are gained with precious experience, and rarely - occult items. Having +1 to Appearance for wearing a low cut dress will not be fair, will cheapen the stat for the people who invested in it and will not be realistic. Part of what set VtM aside from most games is the detail on character creation and development instead of item choices - in the books Appearance includes fashion, style and physique.

A notable exception to this is the heavy armor which gives you more defence for less dexterity, even so that is a realistic and sensible trade-off since you can choose whether to be able to take a hit or shoot straight. The "social costume" clothing would possibly only give bonuses to a place you know there will be no fighting in, which would be a no-brainer.

As for other bonuses. Ask yourself this - does a piece of clothing improve a talent or skill I don't have, moreover something as fundamental as an attribute? I'm not trying to be rude, it just sounds silly.

Right now I can't imagine a suitable bonus that a piece of clothing can give so as not to be unfair or unrealistic.

[Konstantinos the Tremere]

I am all for clothes being there where the story requires, but I am against them giving you social stats like Appearance. The reason is that stats are gained with precious experience, and rarely - occult items. Having +1 to Appearance for wearing a low cut dress will not be fair, will cheapen the stat for the people who invested in it and will not be realistic. Part of what set VtM aside from most games is the detail on character creation and development instead of item choices - in the books Appearance includes fashion, style and physique.

A notable exception to this is the heavy armor which gives you more defence for less dexterity, even so that is a realistic and sensible trade-off since you can choose whether to be able to take a hit or shoot straight. The "social costume" clothing would possibly only give bonuses to a place you know there will be no fighting in, which would be a no-brainer.

As for other bonuses. Ask yourself this - does a piece of clothing improve a talent or skill I don't have, moreover something as fundamental as an attribute? I'm not trying to be rude, it just sounds silly.

Right now I can't imagine a suitable bonus that a piece of clothing can give so as not to be unfair or unrealistic.

Not realistic, really? The way you dress affects the way ppl around you see you, you may dismiss this as shallow thinking if you please but we live in a shallow world. Take a look at the following video and see the difference ppl are treated while wearing different clothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGPjUyVtTQw

Having the clothes affect part of your appearance (again i am not talking about game breaking changes) is the only realistic stat change a piece of clothing could ever give.

[Darkfury]

Mr Konstantinos the Tremere.

While i do agree that fashion exists and have some influence on people perception, as well as reaction towards your person, I'm still
not sure if Vampires give a Sh......t about that. Maybe just a Torreadore will and maybe Ventrue , Giovanni ?

so to keep things real , it.s better have this done as small , marginal influence on game.
Apart from Gear , i do not see a reason to have +1 to appeariance and red panties +3 to manipulation. (it's just silly)

One more argument. It's Dead world, while someone can see that your vamp has nice shoes probably this human who you gonna drink blood from will never notice this. As he/ she is more affected by your Vampiric look.   

Other thing is that more interesting feature for a horror game will be to to wash a blood from your clothes, when you finish with some
operations. (Blood everywhere................. yummy )
That would be more real and suitable for horror game.
When you have to change clothes to keep maskarade, to have clean hands and not making any situations where someone can discover your crimes.     
To make reactions of people on your dirty covered in blood hands and clothes.
To see how scarry they are. That's priority not a +1 appeariance, which can exist BTW but not for purpose of overhelming game and making  HackySlashy+3here and +7there  hurrey i got yellow pants + 10.

I do see this as priority , more fun and accurate other than tons of bonuses.

[ivan4041]

Just wanted to reply to Konstantinos, because he missed parts of my previous post and I want to expand and clarify.

I am not talking about obvious human psychology, or even immortal Kindred psychology. I am talking about how the system is built and how it is meant to shape the gameplay. In VtM clothes are inherent to Appearance.

Let me prove it - Vampire the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition page 98-99:

 " The Appearance Attribute is a measure of how well a character makes a first impression. This may be conventional “attractiveness,” but it can also be the effect of distinctive features, an exotic mien, an air of confidence, distinctive posture, a flair for dressing well — anything remarkable upon initial observation can contribute to a character’s Appearance.

*  - Poor: Your clothes stink, you turn people off right away, or you’re just damned ugly."

Why is this important? - Because it implies that Appearance is not only something with which you are born with or can pay for with money. It's a trait you can work on and improve. A character with high Appearance will have the style and forethought to always wear appropriately impressive clothes - no Hazmat suits at parties.

If clothes, or in other words Appearance can be bought, that breaks down the system. Even if it is a single dot.

In conclusion I think it's best for clothes to serve to purposes - cosmetic and storytelling. If we want our characters to feel unique and special and have special gameplay altering things, we should think of other things not connected to the core rules.

[sansuni01]

Just wanted to reply to Konstantinos, because he missed parts of my previous post and I want to expand and clarify.

I am not talking about obvious human psychology, or even immortal Kindred psychology. I am talking about how the system is built and how it is meant to shape the gameplay. In VtM clothes are inherent to Appearance.

Let me prove it - Vampire the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition page 98-99:

 " The Appearance Attribute is a measure of how well a character makes a first impression. This may be conventional “attractiveness,” but it can also be the effect of distinctive features, an exotic mien, an air of confidence, distinctive posture, a flair for dressing well — anything remarkable upon initial observation can contribute to a character’s Appearance.

*  - Poor: Your clothes stink, you turn people off right away, or you’re just damned ugly."

Why is this important? - Because it implies that Appearance is not only something with which you are born with or can pay for with money. It's a trait you can work on and improve. A character with high Appearance will have the style and forethought to always wear appropriately impressive clothes - no Hazmat suits at parties.

If clothes, or in other words Appearance can be bought, that breaks down the system. Even if it is a single dot.

In conclusion I think it's best for clothes to serve to purposes - cosmetic and storytelling. If we want our characters to feel unique and special and have special gameplay altering things, we should think of other things not connected to the core rules.

It is all good and all, but in the Bloodlines, a Malkavian protagonist will always wear craziest stuff (even though not all malkavians wear crazy stuff) and a Nosferatu protagonist will always wear some stupid fetish clothing.. (even though most nosferatu do not wear those..) Not to forget, the nosferatu protagonist is the only nosferatu to have teeth outside of their mouth.. It looks annoying and that should be something optional.. Just wanted to mention that. I guess what i am trying to say is, the way the protagonist looks in the Bloodlines were already preset. From the face to body time and to the outfit, the whole appearance of the character was already set. The whole system would need fundamental changes to incorporate these new ideas. While that isn't too hard, the best way to do it should be determined beforehand.

When i am playing a Brujah, i would like a protagonist that looks more like Christof Romuald (the protagonist of Redemption) than the one Bloodlines has. (A pile of muscle with a bandana attached to it..) There should be more options i think...

[ivan4041]

Yes there could be diversity, I'm not against that . Those are the cosmetic changes I talked about and it looks like we'll get them thanks to project Vaulderie. The system would not need an overhaul if the only things you were changing was clothing (The secret world is a notable example of this). Some quests might need you to change your clothes for story reasons, otherwise you could do that yourself without effects to gameplay and that's about it. If I understand you correctly that is what you would want, right?


In Bloodlines' defense - it offered stereotypical Kindred as player characters and (maybe because of Source) never stated that you could change much of how you looked like and it never bothered me. Maybe it was just me but I never wanted to personalize how my character looked, only how he felt in the game. From what I can figure it's pretty easy to add that specific content but should cosmetics be the prime focus of our attention?

PS The Nosferatu player is stereotypical, because he has chosen to embrace his curse, rather than be disgusted by it, I actually thought it was rather fascinating, because no other Nosferatu was that comfortable with himself in the game.

[Joe England]

Say, it occurred to me, if clothing stores are going to be in the game then one of them ought to be Blingo's.  Y'know, the urban wear shop mentioned in the Cyber Cafe's star registry.  Just a passing thought.