Map Connectivity and Inconsistencies

[sansuni01]

I was thinking about this and reading "Friday Devblog 12", especially the part about reconstruction of Santa Monica Pier and a haven for each clan. Given how unfinished the maps are do to the engine limitation and a time constrains the original developers faced i think it is great that this project makes up for that and make this game more like what the original developers initially imagined. Then i remembered about a few locations i had found during my original run of the game. Most of my ideas are to make the map more connected and fix map inconsistencies created by the original developers.. So... here we go:

Anyone remember the place we start the game? ... Not there, i am talking about the place in the cutscene where our characters got turned into a vampire.. This place to be specific:



But where the heck is this place? Lets look out the window:



Oh my.. Isn't that the Asylum? We were in Santa Monica the whole time.. Right across to Asylum and next to the Diner.. Upper floor of the Foxy Boxes building:



This place can serve as a Haven for one clan or another (but i am thinking probably Malkavian)

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Then there is the second place we go as we become a vampire, the Nocturne Theatre, where we almost got executed but didn't:



It even has a sever access:



Yet we are not able to come back to this place ever again, perhaps originally this place served a greater purpose than it does in the release. It is a shame really, this place can be made accessible in the game to add more dept. Perhaps there can be a play or two here, people could come and go as they please and it can be a feeding ground for vampires as well.

Not many of you would know this but this place can actually be located in Downtown LA:



Since the maps are going to be merged, the doors in the front could be used to access the theater.

Also there is the matter of exiting the theatre from the back door, after the cutscene, you exit this door and then you meet Jack:



And normally (according to main Downtown LA map), you should find yourself here:



Yet after exiting that door you find yourself here, the tutorial area: (where Jack waits for you)



Both use same textures and have same exact shape with the front side of the Nocturne Theatre building but there are full of inconsistencies.. As far as i understand, originally the Downtown LA map was to be much larger, but they trimmed it down to save space. (also the tutorial map is probably from the earlier versions of the game) Both maps should be merged (so this area can be made accessible after the tutorial) and the whole tutorial area should be used to expand the Downtown LA map.. Place has a garage, a warehouse or two and some apartments. (hey, some of the clans can have havens on this location as well and a place to buy some clothes can appear around here.)



When you look from the location on the picture above, you should be able to see both Empire Arms Hotel and Skyline Apartments.. (And most of the barriers shouldn't be there after the tutorial.




This area should start after above location.

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Empire Arms hotel and Skyline Apartments.. Both are inconsistent. From outside Skyline Apartments is a short building with four floors and a ground floor:



But from inside, it has six floors and a ground floor:



Empire Arms hotel on the other hand is a tall building with too many floors to count...



Yet from inside it has only six floors:



They didn't even bother to add more numbers there to make it look like there are more floors.. It is a shame really.. Same applies with the Venture Tower..

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Lets not forget the Ocean House, i think this map should be merged to the Santa Monica Map as well: (Wouldn't it be nice to be able to come here by walking? Only reason why you would need to use sewer access would be because the front gate is locked. There is a parking lot right next to the ocean house, so some NPC's would definitely be there.



Why? Because according to the sewer map it is right next to Bail Bonds:




Ocean House should be located right next to this bridge/tunnel thing: (also, wouldn't it be nice if real cars used those bridges?)



There is even a beach and a lighthouse behind the Ocean House, with the support of the unity engine, this could be a beautiful sight.. (And even if you physically can't reach there, it would be visible from both inside the house and from the parking lot)



And the front side doesn't have a bad view either:



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And then there is this map, it is from the cutscene where you meet Nines Rodriges, i am certain it belongs somewhere in the Downtown LA (it should be walking distance since the taxi driver drops you off here) yet i can't seem to place it anywhere:





Maybe you guys can figure that out.. If we can expand these maps with the content that already belongs in the game, it could be both fitting and amazing, since they are already a part of the game and the setting..

Well, this is it for now.. I have many more ideas, but for another time, so more to come soon.. Hope you guys liked it. And hey, if you got ideas like these, please post it here..

And a special thank to atrblizzard and his team of modders...

[Vumnayr]

Sweet attention to the locations up there. The Nines encounter area is accessible some how at least, the guys behind Bloodlines Antitribu have been tweaking on it.

[sansuni01]

Sweet attention to the locations up there. The Nines encounter area is accessible some how at least, the guys behind Bloodlines Antitribu have been tweaking on it.

Thanks.. I wasn't aware that another mod was already trying to make cutscene maps usable.. But i checked their work and what they did is not what i had in mind. You just get teleported there. I want two maps to be connected, you should be able to walk there. (like Artblizzard is trying to do)

By the way, the more i look at the Downtown map more of a mess it seems. Did anyone realized that map itself makes little no sense at all?



 I used to think it is just way too small but otherwise OK, but now i realize they just couldn't finish the map, cut it to peaces and tried to make do with whats left.. Did anyone realized that the map has absolutely no place cars can enter or exit? All roads are blocked. No tunnels/roads that connect the outside world like other HUB maps. See it for yourself:



The map has no possible way for a car to exit Downtown, it should have had a tunnel like this: (other hub maps all have more than one)



But i have a solution for both extending the map and to make more sense. Firstly, extending the Downtown LA HUB map with the tutorial map:



The picture above is the rough draft of the tutorial map.. We can take that map and merge it with the Downtown map like this:



In the picture above "A" is the place where you exit the theater at the beginning of the game, "B" and "C" could be a random roadblocks (only for the tutorial mission) so you won't be able to explore Downtown before you are supposed to, "D" is the road that connects the tutorial map with the Downtown map after they have merged (moving one or two fake buildings around maybe required to expand the map like this), "E" could be another way that connects the two together. (only reachable after the tutorial mission)

Secondly, either replacing this car park with a road: (number 11 on the map)



Or preferably replacing this car park: (number 12 on the map)



After that map would look more like this:



In the picture above "A1" would be an extended road that replaces the car parking (number 11 or 12), "C1" would be this map: (from where the taxi drops you off in the cutscene and you get knocked off by Sabbat vampires, name of the map is "ninesintro")



"B1" is the map where in the same cutscene the Sabbat vampires drags you off to after they knock you out and you meet Nines for the first time:



And "F1" is the tunnel/bridge entrance to the Downtown main road. (something like the above tunnel/bridge picture)

This way mistakes in the map could be fixed and map could be extended with the content from the game. Map itself would certainly make a lot more sense.

[Darkfury]

Nice mate. Spot on , good suggestions.

Just for a Malkavian haven i think that the best place which exist in game is placed nearby Hospital in Downtown.
This attached building looks for me  ( from outside) like a House for Elders or a nursery home.

And has nice suggestions from makers (Troika team ) which is a sigh paced on the fence and says :
" Trespassers will be shot, surviwers will be shot again"   which makes me think about Malkavians.

I would place Malkavian haven there , with abandoned Elder house feel and atmospfere.

Old chairs , TV's and some table top games, cheep coffee express, some old clothes, wardrobes, ugly carpet.
poor rooms, some rats, and cliche pictures on the walls.
some shoes here and there, worn out stuff uniforms.

and worms. Yeah like in the Prodigy VideoClip, Breathe. That kind of worms.
 
 

[sansuni01]

Nice mate. Spot on , good suggestions.

Just for a Malkavian haven i think that the best place which exist in game is placed nearby Hospital in Downtown.
This attached building looks for me  ( from outside) like a House for Elders or a nursery home.

And has nice suggestions from makers (Troika team ) which is a sigh paced on the fence and says :
" Trespassers will be shot, surviwers will be shot again"   which makes me think about Malkavians.

I would place Malkavian haven there , with abandoned Elder house feel and atmospfere.

Old chairs , TV's and some table top games, cheep coffee express, some old clothes, wardrobes, ugly carpet.
poor rooms, some rats, and cliche pictures on the walls.
some shoes here and there, worn out stuff uniforms.

and worms. Yeah like in the Prodigy VideoClip, Breathe. That kind of worms.
 

Thanks mate. I am glad you guys liked it! I wish Artblizzard would check this out and commented on it as well, but i guess he is busy with life and this project. I might PM him though, would love to learn his thoughts about these.

I am not sure about the abandoned hosbital player haven though.. It is too large and it is already inhabited by a flesh eating madwomen.. How about that abandoned building in Downtown LA? (you know, the building right across Last Round, it was involved in a mission i think, after that it could be a nice haven) You know, this building:





It still kinda has that Malkavian vibe and if fixed up, it could be a great player haven. (hire a private contractor via computer, easy )

By the way, i just noticed, before deciding to name it Last Round, Bloodlines developers almost named it Exhause Pipe.. I am not making this up, here check:



And Nocturne Theatre was named Sunset Theater before the release.. I guess they felt it didn't really fit the atmosphere they were trying to create, so they changed it. They changed lots of things before the beta. Scrapped a lot of great ideas too.. All because of the time and budget restraints. Not to mention engine limitations. (Also, as far as i know, Activision really forced them to release the game before it was finished.) If they had more time and resources, this game could have been even better. Here are some examples, these pictures are from before the release and they show a lot more features than the game currently have:


In this picture, it shows that police would come, with their cars, sirens and everything, if you committed a crime: (possibly either NPC's would call the police, or police officers would call for back up)


Santa Monica Pier is open, with Ferris wheel and roller-coaster and all that:




(You see, as open as the eye can see, also, look, real buildings in the background, not those cheap 2d ones. This shows that the whole Pier was accessible at one point. Imagine that.)

And i found this picture of "The Asylum", you notice the differences?:



Like the whole place! I don't know if you noticed but according to this picture, "Vesuvius" club was once "The Asylum".. (this one isn't that relevant, but i wanted to show what i have found.)

[Darkfury]

I wasn't saying that Malkavian haven should be in a Hospital , but in the building next to it. Which looks like a Elderyhouse or
some attached institution to the hospital. Which happened to be as hospital itself abandoned.
Maybe for same reasons as main institution work ended.

anyway. Just for clarification.

[sansuni01]

I wasn't saying that Malkavian haven should be in a Hospital , but in the building next to it. Which looks like a Elderyhouse or
some attached institution to the hospital. Which happened to be as hospital itself abandoned.
Maybe for same reasons as main institution work ended.

anyway. Just for clarification.

I understood that, but I thought two buildings were connected. And it is too large a space for a player haven in my opinion. Thats just my opinion though.

No other comments on the finds though, thats shameful.

[atrblizzard]

Impressive list of inconsistencies there, Sansuni! Nice find on the Downtown discoveries, but before that I should begin pointing out the issues with some maps that are harder to combine to resolve such issues.

The haven in the beginning of the game is indeed above the Foxy Boxes floor, but the inner part is as big as the outer shell, leaving no place to add the haven, unless some dramatic changes are added.

It never really occured to me of the road issues in the Downtown, seen those blocks a thousand of times by now but didn't manage to pick up on the "oh wait how are they getting in then" part. Those modifications you've pointed out make a lot of sense, further extending the Downtown map.

But to be on the safe side, I'd like to contact one of the ex-developers of Troika and lead him through these suggestions. If anyone knows what really went down in 'Nam, it's be him. I'm pretty sure he would have a lot of ideas and reasons for such rather forced changes.

[sansuni01]

Thank you very much for the reply Atrblizzard! I am glad you have liked it.

I see your point about the issues on combining some maps, but those can be solved one way or another I think. As for the Foxy Boxes building, the inside doesn't really fit the outside either does it.. From outside it looks like a regular building, but from inside it is a warehouse type of thing. (Not to mention that the height and the windows doesn't match) I really don't think Foxy boxes is where it is supposed to be. It feels like it would be better if some apartments were there for you to explore, especially if you were able to return to the place you were turned to learn more about your sire. No one ever seems talks about her/him. Why did she/he choose to turn you into a vampire? This could have added some more dept to the game. And maybe Foxy Boxes could be moved to the place it belongs. (wherever that place may be, perhaps ex-developers could answer that) Maybe Foxy Boxes could be moved to the building next to it. Without changing a lot.

Issues about Downtown started to bug me more and more after I noticed there are too many them, when you look at the whole thing, the map seems like a badly trimmed mess. It shows that it was supposed to be much much bigger and consistent than it is now, as the cutscene maps suggests, but what really went down is a mystery. If you could fill out that missing pieces by talking the ex-developers that would do the job nicely.

Again, thanks for answering.